tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post5068736807206036518..comments2024-03-27T09:30:02.429-07:00Comments on Carvings with Stories: a blog about woodcarving: The mysterious carved symbols on the kerbstones of LondonAlistairhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16375556738066106681noreply@blogger.comBlogger39125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-12085355964209090192023-08-23T02:29:22.510-07:002023-08-23T02:29:22.510-07:00I was once told they were utility markings, water,...I was once told they were utility markings, water, gas and electricity, water was 3 wavy lines, but cannot remember the other 2 so cannot remember if the triangle is electric or gas. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-88717456926588749992023-05-17T01:38:38.914-07:002023-05-17T01:38:38.914-07:00Thanks for your comment. I think I also still pref...Thanks for your comment. I think I also still prefer the 'utilities markings' explanation myself but I'd be very, very happy to be shown compelling arguments against though!Alistairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16375556738066106681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-5247238700728733972023-05-17T01:35:56.772-07:002023-05-17T01:35:56.772-07:00Thanks for the comment David: it's an interest...Thanks for the comment David: it's an interesting thought about the basement alignments - I wonder if anyone else has any ideas on this? Alistairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16375556738066106681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-48873162617772132552023-05-17T01:33:43.513-07:002023-05-17T01:33:43.513-07:00Thanks for your comment. It's an interesting t...Thanks for your comment. It's an interesting theory and may be true in some cases but I'd say it would be an unlikely explanation for the marks on curbs in Bristol. They are so widely dispersed across the city and don't follow obvious parish boundaries, whereas in places that I know parish boundaries exist, there are no marks. Of course, the curbstones could have been moved at some point but most marks in Bristol are the same (a 'D' shape) and I'd expect variation in marks somehow, to differentiate between parishes. Again, thanks for the reply though: it's great to have new input into what has become a very interesting debate!Alistairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16375556738066106681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-80196928420189974012023-05-16T04:28:28.103-07:002023-05-16T04:28:28.103-07:00I work with gas, and the old boys use these marks ...I work with gas, and the old boys use these marks to show t pieces, crossings, etc from old days, so I'd imagine there will be cable and water equivalents.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-81289923992221681922023-04-27T22:39:19.551-07:002023-04-27T22:39:19.551-07:00These are nothing to do with utilities, indeed the...These are nothing to do with utilities, indeed these were laid down long befofe electricity, and probably even plumbing, but these are the church parish boundary markers. Each church in the area would have a symbol, and the marks show where the parish boundary would end. You often see old signs on the building walls at about 1st floor level which will actually say the name of the church. This was to ensure everyone knew who lived in what parish, and disputes could be easily settled.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-26954905130975211092023-04-27T21:14:38.751-07:002023-04-27T21:14:38.751-07:00Travelling in Poland and found similar marks in pa...Travelling in Poland and found similar marks in pavement curbs in Wroclaw's streets. Only crosses and Vs. I favour masons marks but also point out that curb stones could be reused and so marks might not be in the original places. Regents Park has a lot of markings and if they are utility marks it's difficult to link to houses as there is usually a drop to a basement and you would I think expect them to be aligned with steps/bridges to the house unless early power supplies were passing through the basement areas on elevated cables. David Brownnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-21175760694066365512023-03-23T13:01:39.024-07:002023-03-23T13:01:39.024-07:00Hi Niemi: thanks very much for sharing that about ...Hi Niemi: thanks very much for sharing that about the crosses in St Johns Wood. I wonder if the more elaborate crosses were just the result of a bored carver wanting to do something a bit different after carving 20 or so crosses on kerbstones? It's nice to know other people have also been so interested by these enigmatic marks. All the best, AlistairAlistairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16375556738066106681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-77185079970433661622023-03-23T10:10:09.031-07:002023-03-23T10:10:09.031-07:00Just photographed about 30-40 cross shaped marks o...Just photographed about 30-40 cross shaped marks on St Johns Wood High Street in London. Found this when looking for an explanation as to their origin. All marks there are crosses, and some quite obviously carved with serifs at the edges, so more ornate than "needed" for a simple electricity mark. One also hade a secondary cross though it to make eight lines in total. Niemihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16118504398419889863noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-67385919769354436102022-09-04T07:00:19.839-07:002022-09-04T07:00:19.839-07:00Red Lion Square is pretty close to the Grand Lodge...Red Lion Square is pretty close to the Grand Lodge in HolbornAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-28969033677836720462022-04-06T16:29:32.177-07:002022-04-06T16:29:32.177-07:00Thank you both for letting us know about these exa...Thank you both for letting us know about these examples, a bit further away from those shown here! I wonder if the answer is the same in all cases? Nice to have a bit of mystery still...Alistairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16375556738066106681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-20601635889399547342022-01-22T02:27:38.728-08:002022-01-22T02:27:38.728-08:00This is a very late entry but we have them in Melb...This is a very late entry but we have them in Melbourne too. Thank you for the discussion.Graemenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-43852566208813850072019-08-10T02:02:35.870-07:002019-08-10T02:02:35.870-07:00We're just back from a trip to Garmisch-Parten...We're just back from a trip to Garmisch-Partenkirchen, in Bavaria. Whilst there I noticed a number of kerbstones, and setts at the road edge, marked with the same symbol - a cross with four, separate, diagonal lines between the (equal length) arms of the cross - i.e. like a star. Some of these appeared older and cut by hand, and some looked like they had been cut with a circular saw. At the time I surmised they had religious significance, as the region is devoutly Catholic. I didn't get any photos, I'm afraid!mrmrcromptonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10273030902825841010noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-70048078932470555322017-12-18T10:28:39.161-08:002017-12-18T10:28:39.161-08:00Hi everyone! I have often pondered this for years,...Hi everyone! I have often pondered this for years, and may have some suggestions to add to the discussion.<br /><br />First of all, being a Freemason, I can with reasonable confidence say that it is not related to that. Freemasons meet in private, not secret, evidenced by the grandious Freemasons Hall near Holborn. However, within the Freemasonry, at one point we learn that Stonemasons had Marks which were their signatures. Once a stonemason finished his work, he could leave his Mark to indicate it was his work. It would also help the Overseers trace back who did the work on a certain piece I would imagine. In Freemasonry a cypher is used, and our Marks relate to the initials of our full name using this cypher. All is available online so feel free to look into it!<br /><br />If these kerbstone markings were for road laying instructions, I would have thought that they would be standardised and not all different forms and types - there is no visible or logical system to serve that purpose it seems.<br /><br />As such, I would suggest that the markings we see are the stonemasons' signatures. Perhaps they are more prominent in larger cities as they might have Guilds located there (now known as Livery Companies), where the tradition of the craft may be stronger than in smaller towns et al? <br /><br />I've wondered this for years and would really love to know for certain!! - Doug S.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-83706640107525834612017-12-08T10:10:06.155-08:002017-12-08T10:10:06.155-08:00There is a nice feeling of mystery about them it&#...There is a nice feeling of mystery about them it's true, but I'm still happy to believe that they show where buried utilities are.Alistairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16375556738066106681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-72786067850576864152017-12-08T09:45:58.455-08:002017-12-08T09:45:58.455-08:00Aliens, Secret Societies, Pointings/Reminders/Mess...Aliens, Secret Societies, Pointings/Reminders/Messages, earth connection/mystery signs to passer-bys ... definately something occult and mysterious / Symbolic about them, Listen to yourself. There used to be more. Laid everywhere ...46https://www.blogger.com/profile/10853151500200630502noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-21977950397897581012017-11-06T01:51:45.263-08:002017-11-06T01:51:45.263-08:00Good question! I imagine that they do - any highwa...Good question! I imagine that they do - any highways agency workers out there who can answer?Alistairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16375556738066106681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-10022309937605721702017-11-05T14:51:04.675-08:002017-11-05T14:51:04.675-08:00Thanks all for this. I have also been puzzling ove...Thanks all for this. I have also been puzzling over the symbols in Holborn area and Dulwich/Peckham. But if there are road works etc do the workmen put the kerbstones back in the same order? I have asked roadmenders while working but they did not know what these marks were or even that there were any. Joanna croninnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-26355722638903995622017-07-14T00:21:53.088-07:002017-07-14T00:21:53.088-07:00Excellent! Thank you Stafford, I think we have the...Excellent! Thank you Stafford, I think we have the answer that we were looking for.Alistairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16375556738066106681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-81058379282664381032017-07-13T12:56:36.008-07:002017-07-13T12:56:36.008-07:00Please allow me to expand on my earlier posting by...Please allow me to expand on my earlier posting by providing a short note which was recently published in 'Industrial Archaeology Review':<br /><br />'Kerbstone Marks:<br /><br />The note in Industrial Archaeology News, 180 (Spring 2017) on ‘Kerbstone Marks’ reminded me once again of the many fanciful explanations that I have seen regarding the significance or otherwise of such marks. They have nothing whatsoever to do with mason’s marks, nor land ownership, nor pilgrim’s way markers, etc. The truth, certainly for Newcastle upon Tyne, but I suspect also for any area with such marks, is really quite prosaic. They simply indicate the nature of an electrical connection between a main cable, buried in a street, and an adjacent property - coded guides to early supply lines. I have on record about 30 different kerbstone symbols for Newcastle upon Tyne which mainly comprise squares, triangles, arrows, crosses, circles and letters, sometimes in combinations, chiselled into the kerbstone in situ, almost certainly by electricity supply company workers. <br /><br />In the 1970s I was in communication with a Mr E H Sadler, who had arrived in North East England from London in 1925 to take up a Premium Pupil student apprenticeship - ‘equivalent to a BSc’ - with the Newcastle upon Tyne Electricity Supply Co (NESCO). Mr Sadler would remain in the Newcastle electricity supply industry for the rest of his working life, and was very familiar with the kerbstone marks. In his words:<br /><br />Cable faults ... were common and there was a continuously manned emergency squad of one engineer and three assistants to give ‘fire brigade’ style service to deal with these faults. Location of the actual faults was difficult, and heating of the pavements from the fault current going into the earth was often the quickest and best indication. To help, the position of every joint was marked on the kerbstones of Newcastle.<br /><br />Incidentally, this heating of localised areas of pavement through faults led to some interesting scenes, again as described by Mr Sadler:<br /><br />The ‘warm pavement’ fault technique was easy when there was a light shower of snow, but on a dry day the spectacle of three or four blokes on their hands and knees on the Gosforth [Newcastle upon Tyne] High Street pavement shouting ‘Cold, cold’, or ‘A bit warm’, as they progressed along the pavement certainly created alarm if not despondency among passers-by.<br /><br />The commonest kerb mark in Newcastle is a square with a diagonal cross, Saltire style, which simply indicated a ‘joint’ (Figure 1.) An added plus sign indicated a joint in the ‘positive’ cable, while an added minus sign indicated a joint in the ‘negative’ cable (Figures 2, 3). The letter ‘F’ indicated a fused connection, (Figure 4) and so on. Figure 5 indicates an early fused service giving a 3 wire supply to the premises, e.g. 250V for lighting and 500V for power. All of these marks probably date from the 1920s and possibly the 1930s.<br /><br /> <br /><br />There is no particular reason to suppose that identical symbols were used elsewhere, for there were no national standards. It was up to individual supply companies to decide to mark their joints on the kerbs, and to determine the design of such marks. The situation in London was bound to be very complicated, for historically it was the most confused district in the country in terms of its electricity supply. By 1917 it had 70 different suppliers, (hence 70 power stations), 50 different types of system, 10 different frequencies, and 20 different voltages; some of these companies would undoubtedly use kerb marks, with their own preferred symbols, while others would not. Hence a possible explanation of ‘long runs - several hundred yards - of uniform kerbstones with no marks’, and hence, no real ‘conundrum’. Newcastle’s situation in the 1920s was much simpler, with only two major supply companies, and far-sighted electrical engineers in the Merz family running the show.<br /><br /><br /><br />Stafford M Linsley.<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11622434241249256067noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-45545439081343795162017-07-13T12:45:51.785-07:002017-07-13T12:45:51.785-07:00Hi elljaycee, It's amazing how many others are...Hi elljaycee, It's amazing how many others are noticing these markings and are having their curiosity piqued by them. This post has far more comments than any other that I've published.<br />I can also relate to feeling a bit eccentric for taking photos of kerbstones in public - explaining it to my friends is never particularly easy, especially when they are on a mission to get to the pub!<br />Still no definite answers yet either...Alistairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16375556738066106681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-21460971157089682662017-07-13T12:40:50.671-07:002017-07-13T12:40:50.671-07:00I have looked into it, but struggled to find a con...I have looked into it, but struggled to find a contact number that seemed to be the right one to go for.Alistairhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16375556738066106681noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-65622930904310797282017-07-13T08:55:29.245-07:002017-07-13T08:55:29.245-07:00Hi, I've been lead to this page whilst Googlin...Hi, I've been lead to this page whilst Googling (when did 'Google' become a verb?) kerbstone carvings. I live in Macclesfield, Cheshire, and there are loads of these carvings! I have taken numerous photos (which was quite amusing - seeing the funny looks I was getting from people) and have been trying to find someone else who is as fascinated as me!!elljayceenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-76692416355368737762017-04-20T12:37:46.897-07:002017-04-20T12:37:46.897-07:00Interesting, but probably in error.
In the 1970s ...Interesting, but probably in error.<br /><br />In the 1970s I was in communication with a Mr E H Sadler, who had arrived in North East England from London in 1925 to take up a Premium Pupil student apprenticeship - ‘equivalent to a BSc’ - with the Newcastle upon Tyne Electricity Supply Co (NESCO). Mr Sadler would remain in the Newcastle electricity supply industry for the rest of his working life, and was very familiar with the kerbstone marks. In his words:<br /><br />'Cable faults ... were common and there was a continuously manned emergency squad of one engineer and three assistants to give ‘fire brigade’ style service to deal with these faults. Location of the actual faults was difficult, and heating of the pavements from the fault current going into the earth was often the quickest and best indication. To help, the position of every joint was marked on the kerbstones of Newcastle'.<br /><br />Stafford M Linsleynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-4525461965645261532.post-38628249716210213692016-12-12T03:07:46.421-08:002016-12-12T03:07:46.421-08:00There are dozens of kerbstones here in Tooting, Lo...There are dozens of kerbstones here in Tooting, London with a "V" carved into them. The point of the V is always pointing toward the road. I just assumed this had to do with ensuring that the stone was laid correctly..ie the dressed edges showing...Alternatively, perhaps the mark was made by the mason in the process of manufacture to indicate the best side to work on or "face-up" .Like a carpenter or joiner would when cleaning and shaping a piece of timber, in that process he lays on his "face/edge marks".<br />I have also heard it said that secret marks were left by tramps and rough travellers on stones to indicate to other travellers what kind of a welcome they could be expect at the place where the mark is cut. For example: A kind welcome, provided you work, a hostile welcome, generous, mean, food only, drink only, etc etc..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com